Today’s foxchasefive discussion: Iraq
Participation in this week’s discussion has the same rules of each previous discussion. If you have comments you would like to make about the topic, share them as comments in this post. There is no particular format you must follow just try to stay on topic and make responses that are not just YES I AGREE, or NO I DO NOT AGREE. Try to provide a little bit of detail and reasons why you made that opinion. We are providing topics because many have said it is hard to think of something to write about, so here you are, a thought provoking topic.
TODAY’S TOPIC: Iraq
We all know that this is a hot topic and has been for the past several years. With the sad anniversary of the start of the war recently passing, do you believe that the US has changed Iraq for better or for worse? It has been said by a few politicians and media critics that Iraq was actually running better before we touched it, while others have said our involvement, in the end, has brought dramatic changes for the better of Iraq. What is your opinion, and why?
Worse.
1. Infrastructure in Iraq is still not up to prewar levels. At the rate that it’s currently going at, I doubt that Iraq will ever make a full recovery. Infrastructure concerns not just the roads and utilities either. The continued violence and lack of either visible progress or a unified plan means that the upper and middle class, those members of society most likely to support new growth, are leaving in rapid numbers.
2. Politically, the Kurds still want to secede and the Sunnis and Shiites still want to kill each other. Nothing has been done on this front, and nothing will likely get done. Partition was the best idea in 4 years and it was rejected wholeheartedly. Forcing these three warring groups together, one of which is fearful of a repeat of genocide, one of which will likely steer the entire area towards Iran, and the last of which will probably cause endless problems due to a lack of oil, is lacking in common sense.
3. Militarily, there are still daily bombings. This instability is clearly having a negative affect both in the fact that people are dying and because the continued negative coverage affects what the forces on the ground can do. There is likely to be no immediate exit, and the only eventual way out might be to lose, unless a better plan (like partitioning the country) comes along.
Alex Zhao
April 6, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Let’s keep the extemp format going.
Worse:
1. Sectarian violence. Despite the current “hold” on the amount of sectarian violence in Iraq (this is a hold?!), by pulling out we will create a civil war between Shia and Sunni insurgents. Despite this fact, it will happen no matter what, and is already in place throughout the region as a whole. There is a civil war there. It is, indeed, unsolvable. We have merely postponed the amount of violence between the parties by creating a new, common target for the Muslim armies.
2. Political status. Despite the instantiation of a “democratic” government, it was clearly not done on the Iraqis’ terms. This is indeed why, not only was there a small voter turnout, but why the government has been so unable to keep the peace. Creating an arbitrary government with no power is merely a political move on our end, and does nothing to improve the socioeconomic status of the Iraqi consitutents. Indeed, the “government” in Iraq is merely a political move to improve the view of the GOP, and does nothing to improve the Iraqi citizens. In fact, it shows less stability in its current form (though admittedly less genocidal actions on the part of the government) than there was under Saddam’s regime. At least there, people could go along with their daily lives without the government making TOO much of a hassle.
3. Military status of America. For as long as this war has been in place, more opportunities for our country’s military have been created. The malicious actions of North Korea, as well as the genocides (plural) in Africa would be better served, and have much more solvency, with the American militaries backing our strong verbiage. By putting America in a situation where a draft may be necessary for all of our multinational obligations, we are weakening not only the structure of military in America, but indeed the political structure as well. The longer we keep forces in Iraq, the longer we are at military and political risk inside of our own nation.
Adam Drucker
April 8, 2007 at 4:37 pm
yeah they about said it all while i know this comment violates the free speech restrictions implemented by andrew i felt i had to say that
Dan
April 8, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Much worse, but really hard to quantify considering we’re sitting on the outside looking in. I’ll have a go anyway and try not to be too cynical…
1. The loss of strong leadership of the country. This always meant there was going to be a huge amount of civil and sectarian violence. Anyone who knew someone who had died at the hands of someone else now had a chance to address this and, in the mayhem of the last few years, they have a good chance of getting away with it. History unfortunately shows that this is standard operating procedure. Under the rule of Saddam the Iraqi people as a whole appeared to be better off (not counting the people he killed and tourtured of course). We all agree he was not a good person. He killed many people who opposed or threatened him. What he did provide was a brutal type of rule that forced fractious groups to reside together in some semblance of order (but in no way was there equality between the groups). This is obviously not a reason for removing a dictator, as there so many leaders of this type who are still in power. He was removed because he had connections to 9/11 and WMD’s. Oh yeah, that’s right, he didn’t. BTW, there’s a good article on checmical WMD’s such as the ones he was purported to have here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/09/my_last_wmd_swing_the_lantern. Is that too off topic?
2. The current government of Iraq is a sham and the Iraqi’s know this. It is nothing more than an ineffectual tool created in an attempt to convince the rest of the world that the correct forms are being followed. One wonders whether stability is indeed the aim given the current performance of the government and mixed signals they receive from those that pull their strings.
3. Iraq unfortunately has large oil reserves which will be ‘allocated’ by this govenerment to pay for the rebuilding of their country. The money will go to the persons who destroyed it in the first place. Interesting that Iraq & Iran are numbers 3 & 4 in the world for largest oil reserves in 2006.
4. Lack of security – this extends beyond Iraq. World security has never been in such a bad state. The ‘War on Terror’ has ended up with personal freedom being severely reduced. Travel used to be a pleasure and the only thing you had to worry about was looking like a hippy drug smuggler. Now you can’t even joke in the airport or carry more than 100ml of liquid in cabin luggage. There are plenty of explosives that mass less than 100ml that will take out a plane. What you need to do is remove the motivation for actions such as that. Then you have security, just not the military type.
5. Read somewhere that the number of dead civilians has exceeded the number who died while Saddam was in power. A different kind of ‘liberation’.
6. America’s world reputation has taken a huge hit over this war. If anything good does happen in Iraq, it is not viewed as a consequence of US govt. foreign policy, rather in spite of it. I hope this does not fuel the fear that seems to be sweeping through the States at the moment, or colour the diplomats judgement when making decisions. Paranoia is a bad thing.
7. Partioning? Ask the British or a Palestinian how well that works. Even if we had other planets to ship these groups off to, the ones left behind would still carry on the fight.
Mike
April 10, 2007 at 8:54 am
I’m responding to Tango’s 7.
1. Partitioning is better than “let them violently partition themselves.”
2. Partitioning didn’t work in the past because the British “partition” was basically “let us cut this funny looking country out of the Ottoman lands.”
3. Partitioning is the only viable solution because neither of these 3 groups wants to interact with each other much.
4. Partitioning at least guarantees the possibility of 1 stable democracy in Kurdistan.
5. From 4, we gain not just a stable democracy but a homeland for a people who have been persecuted for the longest time by the Turks (no offense Jihan). That has to be good for US international PR.
6. The only other plans would lead to Israel’s current state of affairs. Enough said.
Alex Zhao
April 10, 2007 at 8:27 pm
In response to Zhao, partitioning will not work.
1. There are no clear lines of ethnic divide in Iraq- if you suggest encouraging them to appear, I would love to hear your case for it.
2. The Sunnis will never tolerate it as they will always be chained to federal oil dollars distributed to them- they have no actual production power.
3. The Shiite partition will become a complete puppet of Iran- this is unnacceptable from the point of view of the US.
4. Neither Turkey, Russia, or Iran will tolerate the creation of even a semi-autonomous Kurdistan. All are vehemently opposed to the Kurdish independence movement.
Sam Hocking
April 11, 2007 at 9:06 pm
In response to all of you, Iraq is the best decision ever and like.
1.totally
2.awesome.
3. you’re all pussy ass commies.
Vman
April 12, 2007 at 4:17 pm
thank you for that vaman.
i dont think anybody’s mentioned the one benefit that’s happened, albeit for all the wrong reasons, from our involvement which is the removal of saddam. however, motive is crucial and nobody would challenge the fact that so long as it was beneficial, the usa and saddam were tight as hell, so him not ruling the nation provided at least the opportunity for progress. a wasted opportunity, but an opportunity nonetheless.
Khalil
April 12, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Vaman, Sam actually isn’t a commie. Though I heard his math teacher is.
M. M. S. H. XIV
April 12, 2007 at 7:01 pm
khalil i dont think the removal of saddam can be considered a benefit we removed the only man who has ever been able to control the factions now engaged in a civil war while he did not do it in a peaceful way he did atleast do it im not saying he was a good person but he did keep iraq sorta together
Dan
April 13, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Response to Sam
“1. There are no clear lines of ethnic divide in Iraq- if you suggest encouraging them to appear, I would love to hear your case for it.”
1. Kurdistan in the North
2. Sunnis in the West
3. Shiites in the East
4. Kuwait in the South
“2. The Sunnis will never tolerate it as they will always be chained to federal oil dollars distributed to them- they have no actual production power.”
It’s either that or be a minority holder in a government that still remembers Saddam Hussein. There are other ways to get money besides oil.
“3. The Shiite partition will become a complete puppet of Iran- this is unacceptable from the point of view of the US.”
The Shiites are going to side with Iran regardless. Your plan is worse in that it makes all of Iraq a puppet instead of just 1 of the 3 countries.
“4. Neither Turkey, Russia, or Iran will tolerate the creation of even a semi-autonomous Kurdistan. All are vehemently opposed to the Kurdish independence movement.”
1. Turkey will tolerate it because they’re more concerned with EU membership. Additionally, they put heavy weight on US opinion.
2. Russia simply opposes US action regardless of what’s done.
3. Iran would do the same. Thus regardless of what’s done in the country both countries would oppose Kurdistan anyway, so their input doesn’t change regardless of whether the region exists or not.
More importantly, the region is already autonomous and basically functions separately from the rest of Iraq. It is relatively more peaceful than the southern regions and thus is more developed. It has its own government already in place and democratic institutions that have been functioning since 1992.
Alex Zhao
April 14, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Занимаюсь дизайном и хочу попросить автора foxchasefive.wordpress.com отправить шаьлончик на мой мыил) Готов заплатить…
abigh
October 14, 2008 at 8:33 am
oh yeah, one more thing Are you interested in my teamwork opposition Fresh joke! What goes black and white, black and white, black and white, boom? A nun falling down the stairs.
SmokeSeet
October 28, 2008 at 9:47 am